Curse

Aki Soyokaze · Apr 18, 2006, 11:14 AM // 11:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dougal Kronik

Honestly, I don't do a lot of PvP (as if you couldn't tell

).

They should broaden the PvP side - that I don't doubt. Some in my guild are into PvP and if they find enjoyment in that aspect of the game, then that is great!

But present ideas and options on what you would like to see and maybe how to implement you vision.

But, you have to admit - recognition and something visible to other players of your stature is something that all players would strive for. I like the trim the winners of the GWWC get on their capes.

That kind of idea.

Well I still don't know about a championship but I do like the idea of having battles at the guild hall that are PvE in nature. Where lets say you have to fight off wave after wave of ever increasing numbers of enemies that are trying to seige your base. Those enemies of course will be based on the kind of guild hall your guild has; warrior's and wizard's fight charr, hunter's fight undead, frost fight stone summit, etc. Kind of like the Zaishen elite battles in the PvP arena where groups get larger and larger. And when you get to a certain level and die that is displayed in your guild status, which then could perhaps be put on a ladder where it can be compared to other guilds.

I think that side of the Guild/Guild Hall needs some more work, considering that the vast majority of guilds out there don't utilize their guild hall.

JR · Apr 18, 2006, 02:45 PM // 14:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dougal Kronik

Example: You find out that Factions has an area like the UW that no one has been to. This area is available to any Ascended characters , but you can only be there for 1 hour. You get 1 chance at entering. You can have a party of 8 enter this area.

What will your party consist of and what will the builds be?

Just post what you can come up with? (If you can

)

Probably the same thing I did when they converted Tombs to PvE; grab three people and head in. On the first day it was out, the first run I had taken we went in with two GvG style Boon Prots, a Griffon farmer W/E build and an SS necro with 4 skills on his bar. We cleared it from start to finish in under 2 hours.

Or a couple of days later doing it with EvIL; despite the language barrier we cleared it in just under 35 minutes from start to finish.

The sad fact is (and I am seriously struggling not to sound like an arrogant elitist pig here) PvP players are in general better at PvE than most PvE players. If you make a PvE competitive event then by nature PvP players will take part, because they are then competing against other players; it becomes PvP.

I realise how controversial this post is, but I hope it is not taken the wrong way.

quickmonty · Apr 18, 2006, 03:09 PM // 15:09

What JR said sums it up well.

PvP players (and not all are arrogant elitist pigs .... j/k) are more serious players. PvE players are more casual players. Generalization, but true most of the time.

makosi · Apr 18, 2006, 03:15 PM // 15:15

PvP and PvE are incomparable. PvP is for the ZOMG PWNZORZ and PvE is for the ZOMG PWNZORZ + everyone else. And, btw, how can you justify: "PvP players are in general better at PvE than most PvE players." ?? Rank calculates your PvP ability (controvesrially) - how is your PvE ability calculated?

The Real Roy Keane · Apr 18, 2006, 03:16 PM // 15:16

I still can't believe so many people took the OP seriously. Someone renew my faith in humanity, quick!

Dougal Kronik · Apr 18, 2006, 03:22 PM // 15:22

Thank you blocparty - that's the kind of spirit I was looking for. An honest attempt at what could be instituded into a PvE Championship environment.

Also, Aki Soyokaze, that's a nice twist - have an event focus around the defense of your Guild Hall. And the ladder aspect - it's not a PvE Championship - but I would certainly participate with my Guild.

From JR-

Quote:

Probably the same thing I did when they converted Tombs to PvE; grab three people and head in. On the first day it was out, the first run I had taken we went in with two GvG style Boon Prots, a Griffon farmer W/E build and an SS necro with 4 skills on his bar. We cleared it from start to finish in under 2 hours.

Is that with no previous information from others who had gone in and saw what kind of mobs you would face?

I have no problems with PvP players participating because they play the game as well. They would of course have to have a PvE character that is at least lvl 20 with the two 15 Attribute quests done, Ascended, and probably finished the game for the Elite skills from the Ring of Fire missions. That means they have probably done quite a bit of PvE as well. They are truly balanced players!

But the PvP competition, as you stated it would be because it is a competition, would be against a standard - not each other. Like and timed or measured solo/team athletic event - like Luge, Bobsled, Diving, Decathlon etc.

JR · Apr 18, 2006, 04:16 PM // 16:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by makosi

PvP and PvE are incomparable. PvP is for the ZOMG PWNZORZ and PvE is for the ZOMG PWNZORZ + everyone else. And, btw, how can you justify: "PvP players are in general better at PvE than most PvE players." ?? Rank calculates your PvP ability (controvesrially) - how is your PvE ability calculated?

Entirely seperate conversation, but Rank is no show of general PvP skill what-so-ever.

The simple truth is that to excell in PvP you do need a fair amount of skill, to excell in PvE you only need a fairly mediocre amount of common sense. The reasons have been covered again and again in this thread; PvE is repetetive, fighting the same monsters with the same skills and same habits.

PvP players are generally PvE players who got bored, and needed to move onto something more challenging. Either that or people who come from a background of competitive games, and jumped straight into it (despite the unlocks grind and learning curve).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dougal Kronik

I have no problems with PvP players participating because they play the game as well. They would of course have to have a PvE character that is at least lvl 20 with the two 15 Attribute quests done, Ascended, and probably finished the game for the Elite skills from the Ring of Fire missions. That means they have probably done quite a bit of PvE as well. They are truly balanced players!

Most serious PvP players have been playing since release if not earlier. Back in the days when faction didn't exist, and the only way to unlock was through PvE. Personally I have played through the PvE side of the game 9 times, although admittedly the last 2 of those 9 were straight runs/powerleveling.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dougal Kronik

Is that with no previous information from others who had gone in and saw what kind of mobs you would face?

Nope. It was pure luck that our Warrior was W/E not W/Mo, considering our monks were both entirely enchantment based.

Dougal Kronik · Apr 18, 2006, 04:30 PM // 16:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Nope. It was pure luck that our Warrior was W/E not W/Mo, considering our monks were both entirely enchantment based.

See! That's what I'm talkling about. Only, if you knew there was just one shot at that to progress to the next level/area/mission you might have taken a few more precautions when forming your party.

Mandy Memory · Apr 18, 2006, 05:18 PM // 17:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by JR-

Probably the same thing I did when they converted Tombs to PvE; grab three people and head in. On the first day it was out, the first run I had taken we went in with two GvG style Boon Prots, a Griffon farmer W/E build and an SS necro with 4 skills on his bar. We cleared it from start to finish in under 2 hours.

Or a couple of days later doing it with EvIL; despite the language barrier we cleared it in just under 35 minutes from start to finish.

The sad fact is (and I am seriously struggling not to sound like an arrogant elitist pig here) PvP players are in general better at PvE than most PvE players. If you make a PvE competitive event then by nature PvP players will take part, because they are then competing against other players; it becomes PvP.

I realise how controversial this post is, but I hope it is not taken the wrong way.

I must say that I have not seen this ever put better, even though it has been said many times. Although I dont think that PvP players are exactly better at PvE than PvE players, its that the PvP players generally can make a better build because of their strive for being the best and their goal of complete efficiency.

SpeedyKQ · Apr 18, 2006, 05:20 PM // 17:20

This idea for a combined PVP/PVE arena full of monsters with teams that must have one of each profession is decent. Sounds kind of fun.

The idea that PVE deserves a world championship as much as PVP does is stupid.

Str0b0 · Apr 18, 2006, 05:22 PM // 17:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by shezbian

ersonaly i dont think it's fair that the pvp champ's can do an all famos chapionship while the pve-ers can only sit at the side and watch the thing they cant do.
here is what i taught of, could have some isuses but you can point that out.

area of battle:
this area will have a ladder of monsters, there are 3 portals you have too go true:
1) monsters in lvl 15 till 18, all of them are warriors, hunters and healers.
the goal here is too clear the whole area.
2) monsters of lvl 18 till 24, this has a mix of warriors, mesmers and healers, there is 1 boss of lvl 26 with ele power and armor 120.
3) monsters of lvl 24 till 27, now all provessions are here, the names dont say there profession so be on your tail here.
bog boss) here is an boss of lvl 30, it has an armor 180 and can use of every provession a skill, 2 of them are faction skills.

time limit?:
no, time limit cant be in it since pve is a time consuming game, time will only make you rush and your mission will be a failure quick.

team formation:
this must be a bit diviculd so the team will have a max of 6 ppl, there are sertan rules when you make a team.
1)when you leave a team, you cant get in a team for the next 1 hour.
2)if someone leaves the moral boost will go 2% higher than normal max, meaning that when you have 10% moral boost your moral boost can go to 12%
3)you must be lvl 20, even if you are not you will not suvive even a minute.
4)every team must have atleast 1x of each profession.
5)your team will be regitered in the database in Anet so making a whole diverent team will only get you from point 1, keaping the same team makes your team get higher in the top 100.
6)too track each other, you will have an yellow ! so you know who is in your team and who not.

but what about a draw betwean 2 teams?:
already taucht of.
instead of doing this everytime untill one of them makes a mistake, there is then an arena that is full of monsters.
the teams cant attack each other, the monsters have an unequal amont so if there are(for example) are 49 mosters, one of them neadt too have more than the other team.

great, how to enter?:
when you made your perfect team and started the mission, your team will be reg. automaticly.
when you made a team and fighted it 3x already, you will have the chance to name your team so a voting of who will win will be easyer and Anet can then track that team a bit easyer.

any crits, addings?

IMO PVE is harder killing lvl 30 bosses and stuff

First off boss Ai is not more difficult than an actual player. Secondly this sounds like sour grapes to me. You want a chance to win some real world swag for your hours spent in playing. PvP got the nifty stuff because it has no real reward system built into it. All you get is a rank and some emotes and, if you make the finals, some cool cape effects. So of course they offer incentives for them. PvE makes it's own reward. You kill something you get a drop. whether the drop is good or bad is immaterial the fact remains thatg you are being rewarded. Let PvP have their recognition and their goodies. We PvE people already have our goodies.

Dougal Kronik · Apr 18, 2006, 05:28 PM // 17:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Str0b0

You want a chance to win some real world swag for your hours spent in playing.

Nowhere in his post did he mention winning real world swag!

I, personally, would be happy with some in game kind of recognition - like {WC} after my guild for winning a PvE Championship.

Str0b0 · Apr 18, 2006, 05:31 PM // 17:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dougal Kronik

Nowhere in his post did he mention winning real world swag!

I, personally, would be happy with some in game kind of recognition - like {WC} after my guild for winning a PvE Championship.

Well excuse the hell out of me for misunderstanding amidst the mass of misspellings and the meandering nature of the post. Still the fact remains that PvE has it's own reward PvP has nothing without recognition and fame.

Zhou Feng · Apr 18, 2006, 08:15 PM // 20:15

They should make PvE more dynamic, more challenging then. "Oh that X map... right *yawn* all I need to bring is this and this and presto... *yawn*" No rush no sense of danger once you know the X maps enemies because of its staticness. BUT make it more dynamic, more unpredicatble and let the mobs have secondary professions within them and a more better AI then they already have and things in PvE will be more interesting "Sheat!!! Dude where the hell did those mobs get that?! RUNNNNN!"

As for AI in mobs they just need Temper, Mind and Heart to deal with how they act to a certain suggestion. Make some monsters dumb and berserker types, some shrewd and cunning who will preferably keep distance, some who are calm and will try to counter players as best their skills allow... Im sure its possible we have some uber AI in games today whereas the Computer acts quite sneaky and cunning (Played Feral Instincts or Metroid Prime Hunters lately?)

Draeco_Smash · Apr 19, 2006, 04:13 AM // 04:13

Ok so whats been stated???
How can u Predict or Presume that a PvE Championship would be a "Farm War"
Farming...
First farming exist because yes our standard PvE environment does not change "often"... however THE CHAMPIONSHIPS WOULD NOT BE OUR STANDARD PvE ENVIRONMENT,
What is being stated here is to use NEW maps with progressively harder missions to complete...
Ultimately, you would be able to change your SKILLS in between missions but not change ur GROUP BUILD. So what you start with is what your stuck with... (theres your unpredictability) Each mission, is a different map with different foes who use different skills. And no one is saying that the objectives wouldn't be changing as well...

You can argue the differences between PvE and PvP till you turn blue in the face and your eyes bleed. THAT IS NOT WHAT THIS IS!!!
Call it a PvE test, where you get one shot your build either rocks the board, or too bad so sad... thanks for trying. Much like "but not the same" as your standard run at halls. I don't want an equivalent of the PvP Champs, I want a new one unique to PvE.
Because yes, PvE does loose its flavour once you learn the boards and the monsters within them."Predictable" But the thrill received when smashing through missions or boards on your first run, especially in competition against other guilds... don't tell thats lame or uniteresting, cuz if you do, ur just not man (or) woman enough to throw ur nuts out on the table and see if you measure up...

My 2 cents, "Fire at will!"

Viruzzz · Apr 19, 2006, 04:07 PM // 16:07

there are 2 things that fundamentally seperates PvP from PvE and makes PvP alot harder, and more skill intensive than PvE

1) everything in PvE is static, there might be a few occasions where multiple bosses can spawn at the same place, or where a spawn might or might not be there on that particular time running through the area. but that is all the diversity you will ever get in PvE, in PvP on the other hand all you know for sure is that you will be fighting other players. you have no idea what they are bringing, no idea how good they are, no idea how to counter them beforehand, and most importantly you wont know if your tactics works against them before you have played against them, and if it doesn't, will a change in tactics work? can you pull the change off before you are completely vaporised?

2) energy management, imo THE most important thing in PVP right now, there is just so much energy-denial going on in the PvP currently, in PvE, you run in, click whatever skills you want, kill everything, and wait 5 minutes to get rid of your halfway exhausted energybar.
Ever see players spamming their energy when playing PvE? when someone accidently brings another group of monsters into the fight, they don't have any type of energy management, except for ther natural energy regen.
in PvP people use alternate weapon sets to "hide" energy, and use skills in order to get energy, like Mantra of Recall, a very popular skill right now.

PvP is just way harder to be good at than PvE, you have to have some sort of skill to play in PvP, in PvE you just need to know how things usually are, and you can get by just fine.

Symeon · Apr 19, 2006, 04:30 PM // 16:30

This idea is not a flame nest, unless people want to make it so. If all you can say are one or two dismissive sentences followed by leaving the thread, there is no point in your posting. Keep to constructive discussion, whether you support, detest or don't feel either way on this.

Dougal Kronik · Apr 19, 2006, 04:47 PM // 16:47

Some of the rules before I go into the specifics.

Rules

Can be any number of players in a party up to 8.
Once you enter with the party, that party is fixed for the duration of the event.
In between missions players will be able to adjust their skills and access their storage.
In between missions players will have access to Merchants and all Traders.
Players will not be able to change characters between missions.
Players will not be able to change secondary professions between misssions.
Party rosters can be reduced but not replaced or increased.
Each player will have a Progress Counter to keep track of event advancement.
Each player will have a separate Death Counter to keep track of deaths during event. The deaths during the event will increase your regular death counter.
Each player will have separate Experience Counter to keep track of experience earned during event. The experience earned during the event will increase your regular experience progression.

Format

The event will begin at 0600 PST on a Saturday morning. At 0530 PST players will be able to access the PvE Championship Event by two methods:

Access the Ship Travel from Tyria or Cantha to travel to the island City where the event will take place. Then form a party.
Form a party and party travel via the Ship Travel.

The First mission will begin at 0600 PST. At this time the party leader can select enter mission. Parties may enter the mission from this time until the stop time for the mission at 0800. All members of the party must have 0 Progress Counter to Access the First Mission.

Mission Procedure

On entering the mission all members of the party have their Progress Counter incremented by one at the beginning.
The Party will be told in a cutscene or Mission popup what they will be required to do to successfully accomplish the mission. They will also be told of what the bonus for the mission will be.
The party will have no access to a User Map. Similar to the Catacombs/UW/FoW.
If all members of the party die, the party will return to the City they entered the mission from.
If the party is successful in accomplishing the mission they will proceed to the next city, and prepare for the following mission.
Experience and deaths will be recorded for each party.
At 0800 all parties still in the mission will be returned to the City they entered the mission from.
All successful parties will have 1 hour to prepare for the next mission in the new City.

There would be a total of 10 Missions tied together into a storyline. These missions will get progressively more difficult. The maps would not be linear - therefore increasing the probability of parties taking the wrong path because they did not heed the Mission instructions at the beginning. The instances would have the same spawns for each party. The exact same amount of potential experience. The standard experience values for Mission/Bonus completion would apply. Each mission would have a two hour window and should take around 45 to 60 minutes to complete.
At the end of the event:

The most Missions completed would be the winner.
If any ties then Bonuses completed would decide.
If still any ties then least party Deaths incurred would decide.
If still any ties then total party experience gained would decide.
If still any ties then least amount of total time spent in Missions would decide.

Result

The winning team would have a coloured crown (or something similar) awarded to each player. Like the Wintersday Hats. That they could wear in Towns as a measure of their stature and prowess. Also every member of the team should also get a T-Shirt or Jacket.

They could use this PvE format as a preview to upcoming chapters of Guild Wars. Use this PvE Championship format as the weekend event to the missions and storyline. Have other areas to explore for those players who decide not to enter the Championship or get eliminated part of the way through.

Code:

Times and values are used for theoretical use only.

quickmonty · Apr 19, 2006, 05:01 PM // 17:01

Before the fireballs start landing .....

Good job Dougal. Whether or not people agree with the idea, you spent the time to lay it out in detail. At first glance .... I like.

mariano · Apr 19, 2006, 05:29 PM // 17:29

Out there, there are many competitions which do not consist in an interactive fight between players or teams of players. These competitions consist in an non interactive fight between between players or teams of players to find out who gets a better record.

Then, I do not see a problem for the existence of a PvE competition, but this competition, I think would be based, for example, on:

Given one or more maps:

type of competition: who gets a quantity of experience the fastests. Another option for this: who gets more experience within a a quantity of time.

type of competition: who gets a quantity of kills the fastests. Another option for this: who gets more kills within a a quantity of time.

type of competition: to defeat 8 types of boss (may be one for each profession), wins who gets the best score.
The score points, an amount of a positive points is got by defeating a boss within a btime, the faster is done more points are got, an amount of c positive points is got by holding a certain spot during certain time, or an amount of d negative points are got when being killed or if taking to kill a boss more than c.

And things like that, may be the coop missions of the Crystal Desert could be an inspiration for these other PvE competitive missions.

I think that this could be placed in the new Zhaishen area, in the Isle of the Nameless. And could have an interface similar to that of the Zhaisen Challenge , (were the leader can choose the type of opponent), in this case for choosing a type of PvE competition. The competition would start as soon as there is opponent or opponents. And the teams times and, or, score points would be seen in the screen for all participants.